Current Events

[Flygirl]

* The commentary below is only about certain U.S. sociopolitical issues but the thread is open to anything!

An Unpopular Perspective on U.S. Politics in 2020

OK, show of hands: How many of you are ready to admit this Trump-hate has gotten completely out of control? I mean, when it comes to leftists, I get it; it's an election year and most people who voted for Hillary are still raw. They are raw because she lost, and she wasn't supposed to. They are raw because the Russian collusion theory fizzled, after their politicians and everyone in the media told them it would be Donald Trump's undoing. They are raw because Donald Trump was able to appoint a Supreme Court justice. They are raw because the investigation of Joe Biden's corruption did not constitute an offense worthy of impeachment. They are raw because unemployment had reached its lowest point and the economy was flourishing under the Trump administration (prior to coronavirus). They are raw because this epidemic could not be pinned entirely on Donald Trump. And they are stuck at home feeling sorry for themselves and watching CNN... brought to you by the DNC and the "Orange Man Bad" foundation.

The Democrat powers-that-be desperately want (need) to win this election. The 2020 propaganda machine is running full tilt, and there is a suffocating level of hypocrisy with which the accusations fly. So far this year, Democrats have decried the ban on travel from China and other countries as an overreach of power... but when the pandemic got worse, decided the President acted too late. Democrat governors accused Trump of not sending enough supplies to the states; meanwhile supplies sat unused in warehouses, creating a surplus. The governors warned about abuse of power - while complaining their failure to act was a failure of the Trump administration to advise them. Democrat politicians insisted Trump is unilaterally guilty of causing nationwide coronavirus deaths - as they artificially boosted the numbers by including "related" deaths. Then they ridiculed Trump for making vague references to possible cures - as they lamented that he was ignoring the situation. They went out and partied on beaches - then complained when people peacefully protested to reopen the economy. I could go on, but you get my drift.

Then in May, to the great dismay of Democrat politicians, the curve was just starting to flatten. Stay-at-home orders had been effectively mitigating the spread of the virus. There was a possibility the economy could rebound to where it was in February.
Panic ensues...

After all, coronavirus was their bread and butter. They can't allow prosperity in an election year - not with a completely inept, potentially senile presidential candidate. Women are accusing Biden of sexual harrassment, and the party of hypocrisy can no longer employ the "believe all women" mantra. Many leftists are heartbroken that we won't be fundamentally changing our government to a socialist system; so the Bernie Bros might sit out in November! Mail-in voting, illegal immigrant voting and ballot harvesting can only do so much. That false sense of security from polling won't encourage people like it did in 2016. They need something big, and fast, to galvanize the party and get voters really riled up. A school shooting; a North Korean military strike; a market crash; increased gas prices; a Twitter war - anything! Maybe they can float the idea that Trump is homophobic during Pride month?... Nope, that one has been used too many times. Kids in cages? Oh right, that one fizzled when everyone realized they were Saint Obama cages. Could they bus another horde of hapless immigrants up from Central America and put women and children in danger for some clever photo ops? Nah... I think that went a little far, even for George Soros.

Then, suddenly, something amazing happens. A video surfaces of a black man being murdered by a police officer in broad daylight, with four other cops looking on. It's like Christmas. We all know how a single event can drive people mad in this country. Even if it's a high school kid with a smirk on his face. Now THIS is going to get them some traction.

Couldn't have happened at a better time, as Obama administration officials are being sequestered for what appears to be (ironically) an unprecedented abuse of power with regard to the FBI and Michael Flynn. Michael who??

The video and subsequently organized media hype goes colossally viral, and an enormous group of angry, stir-crazed SJWs, Black Lives Matter, Antifa and Colin Kaepernick fans rises up like a phoenix from the ashes. Now kids, George Floyd is way more important than dozens of black-on-black murders every week in Detroit and Chicago; way more important than all the MS13 and other gang murders taking place all of the country in creatively horrifc ways. This is RACISM. (No evidence the dumb cop's motive was racism, but that's not important.) Screw the masks and social distancing, THIS protest is more important than that quiet, reserved Republican attempt at picketing to get people back to work. THESE "protesters" will incorporate violence, looting, destruction of property and arson, with absolutely no message other than "systemic racism in law enforcement". Although the numbers do not support this narrative, as previously mentioned, facts don't matter. (Although the Democrats own 90% of the media, fake news only flies in one direction.) It'll be spectacular. Police officers and small business owners will be shot and stabbed in an equal opportunity fashion. And the blame will rest squarely on the shoulders of the self-proclaimed "law and order" president, Donald Trump.

Like the Guatemalan exodus, I don't think the Democrats envisioned this one getting away from them. I don't think they were prepared for just how insane leftists can be when they think they are making history. Did they forget about 2016? The interesting thing about these times is that we have a number of generations in the mix with very unique overarching characteristics. When Hillary lost the election, the liberals of my generation got ticked off. We're the generation of obnoxious stubbornness. When you add the typical liberal elements of narcissism and sanctimony to the mix, Gen X'ers can be a real menace. Then there were the Baby Boomers. Some voted for Hillary, but all of them pretty much grumbled and got over it. Didn't see many women in their 60s and 70s with pink hats on, screaming at the sky. They had been through the protests when they were kids, and they are actually aware that the civil rights war for women and minorities has been won. There's nothing to really scream about anymore, other than taxes, jobs and foreign affairs. Which brings us to millenials. Those loveable, sensitive do-gooders who've never been taught how to lose anything (certainly not with dignity). The generation of "Look at me! I'm special!" The liberals of this generation lost their ever-loving minds, and have yet to recover; they've been in a downward spiral for years, screaming (literally screaming) at anyone who will listen... Things have only gotten crazier for these guys.

Millenials have the distinction of being the only generation to call for diversity and inclusion, while imposing a "cancel culture" wherein anyone who disagrees or triggers them must pay dearly. Boycotting. Threats. Hollywood blacklisting. Whitewashing of history. Media attacks. Doxxing. And then there are the classier acts of spitting in people's faces, urinating in beverages and defecating on the street. The crowd goes wild. What was that about people who don't know history being doomed to repeat it? (I bet these kiddos didn't take history class because violence is offensive and their moms wrote them a note...)

So here we go. The Gorge Floyd Rebellion. Defund the police! We mean, totally abolish them. We'll replace them with counseling and community watch groups. Oh, and we'll release all prisoners who aren't on death row... We'll govern with peace and love.
*About 24 hours later*
That's not, uh, what we meant. We meant to say take away *some* funding from the police.

All cops are terrible and should not be portrayed any differently. We should delegitimize them completely. Surely, demonizing the entire profession will make people want to work with us and fight against their own "systemically racist" system. After all, we own the media, and that means we own corporations who can't afford to lose business. We will boycott any business that doesn't actively, vocally support our cause. We own Hollywood, and we are canceling ALL the TV cop shows. And Gone with the Wind.

And make sure to cancel the little cartoon police dog in "Paw Patrol"! I mean, that puppy's got power-crazed racist written all over him.

So for the people advocating for hanging on to law enforcement in a diminished capacity with huge reforms, but making it clear to children and society at large that the police are to be hated because they are all horrible people, I have a question. Who do you think is going to want/keep this job? How badly do you think they will want to protect you? Are you OK with your lost child in the park running to a complete stranger for help, because she has been taught to be scared of police officers?

The "conversation" we are having about racism is ridiculous. I challenge anyone to debate me on this. I've read all the angles: police are more likely to pull over black drivers, and to arrest black people? Well, yes. You see there is a correlation between areas of high crime and a large condensed population of black people. The demographics differ wildly between Manhattan and Owego, New York. You're a little more likely to get arrested or questioned or pulled over in Manhattan. Police are more likely to shoot and kill unarmed black people? Well, no. How are you calculating your statistics? People love to cite statistics who don't really understand that they are only accurate at giving us the information we want if we use the right measures and control for certain variables. So, for example, if you are arguing that more unarmed black people were shot by police than white people in 2019, you're actually wrong (9 versus 19). If your Washington Post article points out that you can control for blacks comprising 13% of the population, which makes the percentage of black Americans shot by police far higher than the percentage of white Americans, you'd be right. But if you then take those measures and factor in the population of blacks versus whites in high-crime areas, AND the percentage of the black population who actually commit crimes overall, AND the percentage of the black criminal population who are repeat offenders... you see where this is going? (Same applies wrt the "wage gap", but I won't go there.) Then of course there are the anecdotes in which prominent black citizens tell us horror stories about how a police officer singled them out or pulled them over for nothing. Can you guess why anecdotes are even worse than bad statistics for pushing a bogus narrative? It's only a handful of stories specifically told to make a point, like that of our friend George Floyd.

And now CHAZ (the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone) has "occupied" Seattle. *Sigh.* It would be funny if it wasn't reality. It would make a great movie... Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies and The Purge, all rolled into one. How is the leftist media going to spin this one? Oh, I see. It's a peaceful vegan paradise. Sure.

Within a day, the anarchical regime runnning the occupied territory has built a wall, instituted "stop and frisk", begged for more food after theirs was stolen (no police, remember?) and called in the fire department to put out their dumpster fires. But once again, Trump is the bad guy for suggesting we send in the National Guard... And the best part is their list of "demands" (in addition to unlimited soy lattes). Ready? This is by no means an exhaustive list, but here are the highlights:

1. Abolition (NOT reform) of the police department and the attached court system. And, of course, ICE.
2. Reparations for victims of "police brutality", in a form to be determined.
3. A retrial of all black people serving a prison sentence for violent crime. (Just black people)
4. Immediate release of any prisoner currently serving time for a marijuana-related offense.
5. Immediate release of any prisoner currently serving time for resisting arrest.
6. Abolition of imprisonment "generally speaking, but especially the abolition of both youth prisons and privately-owned, for-profit prisons".
7. Free college for everyone.
8. Black doctors and nurses specifically to care for black patients. (Yes, you read that right. White care providers can't touch black people.)
9. Seattle "seeks out and proudly supports" black-owned businesses. (No mention of how this is accomplished; I'm assuming some quotas or higher taxes for white-owned businesses.)
10. The history of black and native Americans given a significantly greater focus in the state education curriculum.
11. "Anti-bias" training as a legal requirement for all jobs in education, medical fields and mass media.
12. Removal of any and all monuments dedicated to historical figures of the confederacy.

So, basically let criminals run wild and re-institute segregation and racist laws as a matter of "reparation".

Have I left anything out? I welcome your thoughts.

[Darrell Lawrence]

1st - Separate Protesters with rioters. They are not the same.
2nd - People are mixing Social Injustice with Politics. Two separate things.
3rd - The U.S. government as a whole sucks. Both major parties are to blame for current state of things.
4th - TL;DR it all.
5th - As an Indigenous person (Native American to those not knowing) to these lands, I am probably the wrong person to even reply to a political thread on an actors website forums.

[John Pickard]

Originally Posted by Darrell Lawrence

1st - Separate Protesters with rioters. They are not the same.
2nd - People are mixing Social Injustice with Politics. Two separate things.
3rd - The U.S. government as a whole sucks. Both major parties are to blame for current state of things.
4th - TL;DR it all.
5th - As an Indigenous person (Native American to those not knowing) to these lands, I am probably the wrong person to even reply to a political thread on an actors website forums.

1st - Agreed. And we're seeing this much more clearly at this time than we have in the past. I've long felt that much of the property damage caused during protests is done by a few agitators, hangers-on, who take advantage of a protest to cause chaos and the protestors will be blamed and their cause discredited. Now, with the ubiquitous cell phone cameras, we're actually seeing legitimate protestors calling out those who are busting out windows.

2nd - Also agreed, but politics is entwined since any change engendered by the protests will require the involvement of law and policymakers. I do think many of the officials are being too quick to appease certain elements; we also need to make the distinction between proper official support of the cause, and kowtowing to anarchists. History shows us that the appeased are never satisfied...

And politics is a large part of what got us here, too. Decades of division, keeping each little group apart and at each other's throats so we'd never come together and threaten their power. And don't get me started about politicizing a crisis...

3rd - Oh, brother, but I agree with you here. Sadly, too many people have bought into the lie of the 2-party system for it to change much in the short term, I'm afraid.

4th - TL;DR is not her style; I've known Erin a long time (not as long as I've known you, of course), and she lays it out straight - which can ruffle feathers if you're not expecting it - but once she does, I've found her open to entertaining other thoughts, and to revising her position. She'll never be a Bernie Bro, that's for sure (me, neither, actually), but she's not so close-minded she thinks she knows everything.

5th - Who better to have this discussion?

This is not a simple discussion, not in any way, shape, or form. There is a lot of misinformation circulating, oversimplifications being made, to justify one point of view or another. A lot of misunderstandings. A lack of context. And a plethora of issues all rolled up into one big, messy bundle.

This isn't about George Floyd, it never really was. He's just the focal point, his murder - and murder it was - the catalyst. The last straw, so to speak. It's thrown a harsh light on aspects of our society that most of us prefer to keep in the shadows. How it ultimately turns out will depend on conversations like this one. We've all got skin in this game - no pun intended.

So - Darrell, this is Erin, who is my friend and generally a good egg. Erin, this is Darrell, who is also a very good friend - I've referred to him as my brother-from-another-mother more than once...

[Flygirl]

Hey Darrell, nice to meet you. See responses below:

1. & 2. Noted, but neither are these sets mutually exclusive. The problem comes when the majority of protesters support the rioters, and even people on the sidelines in Hollywood and corporate America are bailing *rioters* out of jail. Agree that there's a distinction between "social injustice" and politics but it's really hard to separate the two when 1 of the 2 political parties considers their entire platform "social justice".

If you get a chance to read through my whole commentary you will see that it focuses more on the misuse of power by the Democrats and less on the individuals - who in my view are being brainwashed by their environment. So it's really not about slamming protesters themselves. But I would like to discuss CHAZ because I think this could be a major teaching moment for the next generation. I don't want to let it go to waste, since they'll have banned history books by the time my kids go to college.

3. - is a whole other commentary. But I don't disagree.

4. Do people still use that acronym? Is it a forum thing? I haven't seen it used since MySpace.

5. So, this is interesting. Your statement initially read to me like: "As a person who played the trumpet in high school, I am probably the wrong person to even discuss recipes in a Facebook group." Huh?

But then I read it again, and here's my take. The only answer I can come up with is that you're projecting a thinly veiled sentiment that only protected classes have the 1A right to speak about certain issues in specific and approved venues/forums. That's not what you're trying to say, is it Darrell?

[Flygirl]

Originally Posted by John Pickard

This is not a simple discussion, not in any way, shape, or form. There is a lot of misinformation circulating, oversimplifications being made, to justify one point of view or another. A lot of misunderstandings. A lack of context. And a plethora of issues all rolled up into one big, messy bundle.

I like messy bundles as a method of stirring up debate. People get to pick which issues they are most passionate about and start there.

I don't know why everyone always goes after identity politics; I guess because you can take it personally and people like to speak from their own frame of reference.

I've always found political motivations and what goes on behind the scenes WAY more interesting...

[Flygirl]

Hey again,

I just wanted to share this, for your viewing pleasure. Again this is not to say the protesters don’t believe they are doing the right thing, that the police (and white people in general) are out to get black people. That some kind of intrinsic racism exists that is literally KILLING minorities. This is just evidence of the callous, hateful, power-hungry, race-baiting agenda of the Deep State who *definitely* know the truth.

https://youtu.be/COwDLSu99w0

- Erin

[Darrell Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Flygirl

Hey again,

I just wanted to share this, for your viewing pleasure. Again this is not to say the protesters don’t believe they are doing the right thing, that the police (and white people in general) are out to get black people. That some kind of intrinsic racism exists that is literally KILLING minorities. This is just evidence of the callous, hateful, power-hungry, race-baiting agenda of the Deep State who *definitely* know the truth.

https://youtu.be/COwDLSu99w0

- Erin

Missing from that - Tried and convicted vs Police Abuse. That is a rough generalization of over-all.

The video only proves one thing - It's a propaganda thing to deflect what is really going on, trying to deflect blame.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Flygirl

* The commentary below is only about certain U.S. sociopolitical issues but the thread is open to anything!

An Unpopular Perspective on U.S. Politics in 2020

OK, show of hands: How many of you are ready to admit this Trump-hate has gotten completely out of control?

Not me.

I mean, when it comes to leftists, I get it; it's an election year and most people who voted for Hillary are still raw.

Could care less about Hilary.

They are raw because she lost, and she wasn't supposed to.

Could care less about that too.

They are raw because the Russian collusion theory fizzled, after their politicians and everyone in the media told them it would be Donald Trump's undoing.

Actually, that was totally mis-handled. If non-Political Party personnel handled that, a different outcome would have happened. The Republicans refused to cooperate with the Dems, and the Dems refused to cooperate with the Republicans.

They are raw because Donald Trump was able to appoint a Supreme Court justice.

I am pissed about that because of the back-history of the person he appointed AND his behavior at the hearings. A U.S. level Justice should NEVER have a temper-tantrum like he did.

They are raw because the investigation of Joe Biden's corruption did not constitute an offense worthy of impeachment.

There's way more to that "story" that you're not saying, such as Trump's own family members being involved in shady dealings as well.

They are raw because unemployment had reached its lowest point and the economy was flourishing under the Trump administration (prior to coronavirus).

Bwaaaaaa Haaaaa Haaaaaa!

They are raw because this epidemic could not be pinned entirely on Donald Trump. And they are stuck at home feeling sorry for themselves and watching CNN... brought to you by the DNC and the "Orange Man Bad" foundation.

Of course you can't pin the virus on Trump - It didn't originate here. Everyone knows that. What Trump is blamed for is dismantling the readiness teams that would have helped. What Trump is blamed for is his total lack of respect to those that DO know what is going on - Scientists. What Trump is blamed for is walking around without any sort of safety precautions near people. And that comes from his OWN "Twitter" and photos. Even though news agencies report on it, he himself is the source of so much dis-like towards him.

The Democrat powers-that-be desperately want (need) to win this election. The 2020 propaganda machine is running full tilt, and there is a suffocating level of hypocrisy with which the accusations fly. So far this year, Democrats have decried the ban on travel from China and other countries as an overreach of power... but when the pandemic got worse, decided the President acted too late. Democrat governors accused Trump of not sending enough supplies to the states; meanwhile supplies sat unused in warehouses, creating a surplus. The governors warned about abuse of power - while complaining their failure to act was a failure of the Trump administration to advise them. Democrat politicians insisted Trump is unilaterally guilty of causing nationwide coronavirus deaths - as they artificially boosted the numbers by including "related" deaths. Then they ridiculed Trump for making vague references to possible cures - as they lamented that he was ignoring the situation. They went out and partied on beaches - then complained when people peacefully protested to reopen the economy. I could go on, but you get my drift.

On this, I am going to agree somewhat. Not 100%, as many Repubs also are guilty of this crap. I will say this though, for the most part, and I say MOST, not ALL, our Governor here in CA has handled things pretty well.

Then in May, to the great dismay of Democrat politicians, the curve was just starting to flatten. Stay-at-home orders had been effectively mitigating the spread of the virus. There was a possibility the economy could rebound to where it was in February.
Panic ensues...

Yeah.. panic ensues based on a video of a cop literally murdering a black person AND NEARLY WALKING AWAY free, as if it was no big deal. Charges were NOT pressed until things went crazy. There are a LOT of videos out there of police doing this crap, and nothing is ever done. And your video you posted below is bogus, as in it is trying to deflect the issue of abuse by POLICE OFFICERS. I'll reply to that after this reply-novel.

After all, coronavirus was their bread and butter.

That is no ones "bread and butter" To say that is irresponsible. That virus does not choose Dems over Repubs and vice-versa. It does not chose a particular race. BOTH Dems and Repubs have mis-handled things.

They can't allow prosperity in an election year

Same thing happens in every election year. Stop trying to spin it as if it is something unique. It depends on which side is in "power".

- not with a completely inept, potentially senile presidential candidate.

As I said before, just look solely at his own Twitter account.

Women are accusing Biden of sexual harrassment, and the party of hypocrisy can no longer employ the "believe all women" mantra.

Gee... sounds just like the accusations against Trump himself! And the ones against that U.S. Justice he appointed.

Many leftists are heartbroken that we won't be fundamentally changing our government to a socialist system;

This still cracks me up with how people are using the word "socialism" and trying to turn it into a Communist thing. Did you know that a lot of the U.S. Government was initially based on Native Americans? Did you know back in the day Native Americans lived this "social" life style? I'd like you to explain to me how one person has more right to medical coverage than another. I want you to tell me how privatized insurance, who make millions of dollars off of insurance paying people. I want you to explain to me how Billionaires keep making their billions while their "backbone", aka employees, can barely survive. (and then deny that medical coverage because of whatever excuse - "Oh, it's not covered in your plan" crap. Those are MY two biggest contentions in the "social" debacle - Medical for everyone AND better income.

so the Bernie Bros might sit out in November! Mail-in voting, illegal immigrant voting and ballot harvesting can only do so much.

Did you know Trump, and MANY other Repubs, voted by mail?

That false sense of security from polling won't encourage people like it did in 2016. They need something big, and fast, to galvanize the party and get voters really riled up. A school shooting; a North Korean military strike; a market crash; increased gas prices; a Twitter war - anything! Maybe they can float the idea that Trump is homophobic during Pride month?

uuummm After what he just pulled regarding Trans people during Pride month, you have exactly zero argument there.

... Nope, that one has been used too many times. Kids in cages? Oh right, that one fizzled when everyone realized they were Saint Obama cages. Could they bus another horde of hapless immigrants up from Central America and put women and children in danger for some clever photo ops? Nah... I think that went a little far, even for George Soros.

Again, that one is backwards. Those aren't "Obama cages". Those are definitely Trump cages, just like his "wall" that rips through Native American burial grounds.. And those "caged" people have been ignored during the pandemic. I wonder why. Swept under the rug mentality.

Then, suddenly, something amazing happens. A video surfaces of a black man being murdered by a police officer in broad daylight, with four other cops looking on. It's like Christmas. We all know how a single event can drive people mad in this country. Even if it's a high school kid with a smirk on his face. Now THIS is going to get them some traction.

Really? You're going to say that video was amazing in a Christmas sort of tone? As I already said, there are many more videos out there. To take THAT approach towards it is disgusting. As for that high school kid, that was a Native American elder he dis-respected. And that was virtually NOTHING compared to a murder on video. Imagine that... a Native American (me) saying a dis-respect act towards another Native American was nothing compared to a murder video.

Couldn't have happened at a better time, as Obama administration officials are being sequestered for what appears to be (ironically) an unprecedented abuse of power with regard to the FBI and Michael Flynn. Michael who??

And why is this happening over 3 years after Obama left office? Hilary is the one that needs to go to prison, btw.

The video and subsequently organized media hype goes colossally viral, and an enormous group of angry, stir-crazed SJWs, Black Lives Matter, Antifa and Colin Kaepernick fans rises up like a phoenix from the ashes. Now kids, George Floyd is way more important than dozens of black-on-black murders every week in Detroit and Chicago; way more important than all the MS13 and other gang murders taking place all of the country in creatively horrifc ways. This is RACISM. (No evidence the dumb cop's motive was racism, but that's not important.) Screw the masks and social distancing, THIS protest is more important than that quiet, reserved Republican attempt at picketing to get people back to work. THESE "protesters" will incorporate violence, looting, destruction of property and arson, with absolutely no message other than "systemic racism in law enforcement". Although the numbers do not support this narrative, as previously mentioned, facts don't matter. (Although the Democrats own 90% of the media, fake news only flies in one direction.) It'll be spectacular. Police officers and small business owners will be shot and stabbed in an equal opportunity fashion. And the blame will rest squarely on the shoulders of the self-proclaimed "law and order" president, Donald Trump.

You are so way off base here. And I mean WAY off base. Go get yourself better educated on this matter.

Like the Guatemalan exodus, I don't think the Democrats envisioned this one getting away from them. I don't think they were prepared for just how insane leftists can be when they think they are making history. Did they forget about 2016? The interesting thing about these times is that we have a number of generations in the mix with very unique overarching characteristics. When Hillary lost the election, the liberals of my generation got ticked off. We're the generation of obnoxious stubbornness. When you add the typical liberal elements of narcissism and sanctimony to the mix, Gen X'ers can be a real menace. Then there were the Baby Boomers. Some voted for Hillary, but all of them pretty much grumbled and got over it. Didn't see many women in their 60s and 70s with pink hats on, screaming at the sky. They had been through the protests when they were kids, and they are actually aware that the civil rights war for women and minorities has been won. There's nothing to really scream about anymore, other than taxes, jobs and foreign affairs. Which brings us to millenials. Those loveable, sensitive do-gooders who've never been taught how to lose anything (certainly not with dignity). The generation of "Look at me! I'm special!" The liberals of this generation lost their ever-loving minds, and have yet to recover; they've been in a downward spiral for years, screaming (literally screaming) at anyone who will listen... Things have only gotten crazier for these guys.

Millenials have the distinction of being the only generation to call for diversity and inclusion, while imposing a "cancel culture" wherein anyone who disagrees or triggers them must pay dearly. Boycotting. Threats. Hollywood blacklisting. Whitewashing of history. Media attacks. Doxxing. And then there are the classier acts of spitting in people's faces, urinating in beverages and defecating on the street. The crowd goes wild. What was that about people who don't know history being doomed to repeat it? (I bet these kiddos didn't take history class because violence is offensive and their moms wrote them a note...)

So here we go. The Gorge Floyd Rebellion. Defund the police! We mean, totally abolish them. We'll replace them with counseling and community watch groups. Oh, and we'll release all prisoners who aren't on death row... We'll govern with peace and love.
*About 24 hours later*
That's not, uh, what we meant. We meant to say take away *some* funding from the police.

Conspiracy theories. No facts. If there are actual FACTS, post them. And when I say facts, I mean facts, not some talking heads opinion.

All cops are terrible and should not be portrayed any differently. We should delegitimize them completely. Surely, demonizing the entire profession will make people want to work with us and fight against their own "systemically racist" system. After all, we own the media, and that means we own corporations who can't afford to lose business. We will boycott any business that doesn't actively, vocally support our cause.

More bullshit. The police are too militarized. They are doing jobs that they aren't trained for. An example that has been all over FB is a very telling one - If nurses, mental health personnel and the like can handle and retain deranged people, why can't officers? Why do officers need to use excessive force? There are too many situations that cops are placed into that someone else, trained to actually do that job, can do. Most definitely not all cops are bad. They aren't, by a long shot. But those good cops need to get those bad cops weeded out of the system. As for "defunding", the moment that word showed up I said it was a VERY bad choice of wording. And it is. Police Departments need to be re-organized, their purpose more clearly defined rather than a "do everything, get over-stressed" duty. I used to work along side police, up close. I was a member of the Police Union. I saw some of the policies in place from the Union. Needless to say, I wasn't with them for too long (the Union).

We own Hollywood, and we are canceling ALL the TV cop shows. And Gone with the Wind.

And make sure to cancel the little cartoon police dog in "Paw Patrol"! I mean, that puppy's got power-crazed racist written all over him.

Gone With The Wind isn't cancelled. Apparently they want to put some disclaimer in front of it. And you forgot to mention Elmer Fudd and Yosemite Sam. All of that IS over-reaction/stupidity, IMO.

So for the people advocating for hanging on to law enforcement in a diminished capacity with huge reforms, but making it clear to children and society at large that the police are to be hated because they are all horrible people, I have a question. Who do you think is going to want/keep this job? How badly do you think they will want to protect you? Are you OK with your lost child in the park running to a complete stranger for help, because she has been taught to be scared of police officers?

And this is where people like you are afraid of change - Good officers, and when I say that, I mean PEOPLE, will still want the job. They'll want it in the manner they originally expected - As one to serve and protect. Not be militarized. Get rid of the bad apples. They should feel safe in reporting bad behavior of a fellow officer rather than getting fired for it, as has happened. If anyone is going to teach kids to be afraid of cops, it'd be the parents. The parent of a child is the biggest learning experience a child will ever have.

The "conversation" we are having about racism is ridiculous. I challenge anyone to debate me on this. I've read all the angles: police are more likely to pull over black drivers, and to arrest black people? Well, yes. You see there is a correlation between areas of high crime and a large condensed population of black people. The demographics differ wildly between Manhattan and Owego, New York. You're a little more likely to get arrested or questioned or pulled over in Manhattan. Police are more likely to shoot and kill unarmed black people? Well, no. How are you calculating your statistics? People love to cite statistics who don't really understand that they are only accurate at giving us the information we want if we use the right measures and control for certain variables. So, for example, if you are arguing that more unarmed black people were shot by police than white people in 2019, you're actually wrong (9 versus 19). If your Washington Post article points out that you can control for blacks comprising 13% of the population, which makes the percentage of black Americans shot by police far higher than the percentage of white Americans, you'd be right. But if you then take those measures and factor in the population of blacks versus whites in high-crime areas, AND the percentage of the black population who actually commit crimes overall, AND the percentage of the black criminal population who are repeat offenders... you see where this is going? (Same applies wrt the "wage gap", but I won't go there.) Then of course there are the anecdotes in which prominent black citizens tell us horror stories about how a police officer singled them out or pulled them over for nothing. Can you guess why anecdotes are even worse than bad statistics for pushing a bogus narrative? It's only a handful of stories specifically told to make a point, like that of our friend George Floyd.

As you stated (but I am using a different word, same meaning) - twisted facts. And you're using them. Where's all the documentation on this? Proof? Did you know that mentally handicapped people are also targeted? Are those the ones you're including in your "whites got shot more" figures?

And now CHAZ (the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone) has "occupied" Seattle. *Sigh.* It would be funny if it wasn't reality. It would make a great movie... Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies and The Purge, all rolled into one. How is the leftist media going to spin this one? Oh, I see. It's a peaceful vegan paradise. Sure.

Within a day, the anarchical regime runnning the occupied territory has built a wall, instituted "stop and frisk", begged for more food after theirs was stolen (no police, remember?) and called in the fire department to put out their dumpster fires.

Actually, I laughed my ass off at this one. Those are definitely some idjits there.

But once again, Trump is the bad guy for suggesting we send in the National Guard... And the best part is their list of "demands" (in addition to unlimited soy lattes). Ready? This is by no means an exhaustive list, but here are the highlights:

1. Abolition (NOT reform) of the police department and the attached court system. And, of course, ICE.
2. Reparations for victims of "police brutality", in a form to be determined.
3. A retrial of all black people serving a prison sentence for violent crime. (Just black people)
4. Immediate release of any prisoner currently serving time for a marijuana-related offense.
5. Immediate release of any prisoner currently serving time for resisting arrest.
6. Abolition of imprisonment "generally speaking, but especially the abolition of both youth prisons and privately-owned, for-profit prisons".
7. Free college for everyone.
8. Black doctors and nurses specifically to care for black patients. (Yes, you read that right. White care providers can't touch black people.)
9. Seattle "seeks out and proudly supports" black-owned businesses. (No mention of how this is accomplished; I'm assuming some quotas or higher taxes for white-owned businesses.)
10. The history of black and native Americans given a significantly greater focus in the state education curriculum.
11. "Anti-bias" training as a legal requirement for all jobs in education, medical fields and mass media.
12. Removal of any and all monuments dedicated to historical figures of the confederacy.

So, basically let criminals run wild and re-institute segregation and racist laws as a matter of "reparation".

As I just said, they're idjits. As for Trump and the National Guard, what he was roasted for was his OWN words of using the National Guard to SHOOT AMERICAN CITIZENS. You kinda left that part out.

Have I left anything out? I welcome your thoughts.

Quite a bit, especially on the Native American side of things, but hey. Can't blame ya there. The genocide of my people has been going on since 1492, so it's nothing new. Just an ingrained thought process that 1. Natives are mythical and don't really exist except as bad guys in westerns, or 2. The only good Native is a dead Native.

Happy now that you got a reply to this "big discussion" that is really a "stir the pot" agenda post?

[Flygirl]

Darrell,

Appreciate your taking the time to read and respond to my long rant. (Seriously, I'm not being facetious. Considering we are like toenails and apricots on these issues... Respect.)

That said, if I am coming from a position of wanting to stir the pot or promote an agenda, you are doing the same thing. You glossed over the stuff I thought you'd debate and didn't respond to my question about your indigenous privilege; though you pretty much answered it in your response to my OP. But if we're gonna play cards, man, don't take that patriarchal tone with me.

So I won't go line by line because I think I've been too verbose. Just a handful of replies:

• If an unbiased investigation had been conducted things might have turned out differently... OK, I'll buy that... but do you really think they would have found evidence of collusion? Bottom line, what reason have we to believe Trump or his campaign colluded with the Russians, other than Hillz REALLY wanting it to be true.
  
• Kavanaugh and his family should have been expected to sit down and take that BS crap just like police officers should be expected to sit idly by while molotov cocktails are thrown in their windows. They shouldn't. Nope.
  
• You don't think unemployment across the country was at its lowest point since 1968 this February? And unemployment for women and minorities were at the lowest rates ever? That's not really a subjective point.
  
• What you can't gloss-over is that there is zero evidence to suggest that the murder of George Floyd (yes, it was a horrible murder and those other officers should have done something) was in fact race-related. - because we still don't know anything that happened beyond the video. The video is evidence that Floyd was killed and it would be hard to argue otherwise. Do you know of Candace Owens? She's one of my favorite politi-bloggers. Here's some more information about Floyd and statistics. You'll appreciate these stats because they are specific to excessive use of force by police (or as you like to call it, "brutality").
  
• We've got to have a separate conversation about the idea of using biological gender to inform medical insurance coverage. I'm sure you've read some sources and I others. I'm open on it.
  
• Let me ask your opinion on this - Are rich, successful people in themselves a detriment to America? Do you see them adding any redeeming value to, say, the economy? Let's imagine we were all happy to live in our own financial situations - (with a few exceptions of people who need to be covered by the government for various reasons) - and appreciative to live in a country that affords us opportunities to better our situations. Do you think it would impact our happiness/satisfaction, assuming the same living conditions, if uber-successful people didn't exist? If we all had exactly the same money and stuff? Why or why not?
  
• I don't know much about police unions, just secondhand stories. I've heard good and bad, same as teacher's unions...
  
• As a Native American, I thought you'd have really paid attention to the Covington HS story, even after it fizzled in the media. But I guess it did fall out of the spotlight pretty fast. You should look up the background of Nathan Phillips and the longer, unedited version of that video if you haven't already seen it. I don't believe in doxxing and threatening teenagers no matter which super-special group you identify. I didn't like it when conservatives picked on Greta Thunberg and she willingly put herself in the spotlight. This was a 16-year old on a field trip. The whole problem with today's America is people can't get over their identities, their sex drives or their ancestors enough to care about anybody else.
  
• I can't respond to "educate yourself"... So, OK. But no thanks, on this topic I have watched and read a lot on this topic from both moderate-left and moderate-right news sources to think critically and form my own opinion.
  
• What do *you* think happened that suddenly caused all those buses and caravans to arrive at the border from Central America? That didn't seem organized to you? There's little objective proof, you're right. But the media's excuses that everybody realized at the same time that life sucked seems less plausible than that Soros's Open Society Foundation and its subgroups - which have conducted similar missions in the past - could have been part of it all. His name seems to come up a lot when big stacks of bricks appear on street corners during race riots, too.
  
• My subjective opinion about the traits of different generations in their responses to sociopolitical issues and debates is just that. They're not conspiracy theories but I can't say they are facts, either, and there are exceptions.

I have to say it, because I'm anal about this stuff: "Could care less" is the wrong phrasing... should be "couldn't care less". If you could care less, that means you care, at least a little. (That's from the Weird Al song "Word Crimes", and Weird Al is never wrong.)

Do you really think people think that way about Native American people? I can honestly say I've never met anyone who had a problem with indigenous people - and I have actually known some pretty racist folks. I'm sorry if you had experience with that, but I don't think it's as prevalent as you might think. I grew up with a friend who was Native American (well not 100% but not .00027% or whatever it was like Liz Warren, either. LOL) He was very cool and knew a lot about history and culture.

Now we Irish Americans only know how to drink and fight.

Damn it, that was way too long, too. It's a nice night and we (meaning my husband) just got a fire going... have a good one...

[Darrell Lawrence]

Indigenous privilege? Privilege? Seriously? What privilege would that be? LOL

So you expected me to debate only certain things, and were surprised when I didn't? Interesting...

Why do you assume I am referring to collusion having been found with a neutral investigation? Where did I say that? Given what I said and the way I said it, I could be inferring that the case could have been open and shut with no controversy at all (though we both know both sides love to create controversy).

...ummm One is a verbal thing during a hearing. So yes, Kavanaugh should have waited his turn to speak without the tantrum. He was not in physical danger, so no... nothing like molotov cocktails tossed at police or police shooting their very dangerous rubber bullets or tear gas at crowds.

Where did I say what I thought the unemployment rate was? I laughed at that, because that is a joke. In this particular case, numbers are really being skewed and manipulated.

Actually, we do know more than what was on the video. I'm surprised you missed that, given how that was on many news outlets - That cop and Floyd actually had a history together.

Ah yes.. Candice Owens... she who was paid to try to make Floyd's past make it ok to murder him. She's the one that Kickstarter closed down, right?

(or as you like to call it, "brutality")

As *I* like to call it? LMAO, YOU are the only one that used that word! I never said it, other than in quotes OF you!

Yeah, we'll have to have a totally different discussion on that one. One that can involve DNA. And I *don't* lean as hard into that as you may think, BUT it also wasn't the President's place to get involved.

Rich people... Wow. The way you put that, I guess you were and are in favor of billionaire companies owned by rich folks taking the relief funds intended for small businesses, while some of those businesses owned by rich people laid off employees without pay, forcing them to go on unemployment during the pandemic, while others made their employees to be "essential employees", risking their health, at minimum wages, during a pandemic? Just what did the rich folks do to help their employees during a time of crisis? They got richer is what they did.

I know exactly who Nathan Phillips is, and at the time I had no nice words for him either. BUT... I was raised to show respect to elders. At the time that happened, that kid did not know Nathan. But he showed disrespect to him. Finding out stuff in hindsight does NOT excuse that act as it happened in real time (and when I say elders, I am not referring to Native elders... I am referring to ALL elders, like old man John).

When I say educate yourself regarding that paragraph, that as to do with stuff going on LONG before Floyd, LONG before Trump, LONG before Obama, LONG before the Bushes and Clinton and so on. It's been building. The Floyd thing was the tip of the iceberg, so-to-speak. The fuse was lit many years ago. I do NOT like how Floyd is portrayed in all of this. His name and image is being used as a focal point. People have said enough is enough, there needs to be change. And unfortunately, it's his name and image that are at the center of it. With his name and image there, it really takes away from the others that have been killed by police. But luckily there are people out there that keep those other names towards the forefront.

...ummm That one I never responded to because it wasn't in your initial post. Trying to toss something new in there? Because I *do* think their was something going on with SUDDEN caravans, and I *know* there are fascist groups behind the suddenly appearing bricks. Look up Black Bloc (no "k") some time. Interesting read.

I *do* have a problem with illegal immigrants. I *also* have a problem with treating people like animals.

Could care less about the "couldn't care less" opinion. (that was a joke)

No. I don't think people think that way... I *know* people think that way. To include both State and U.S. government.

I should clarify, btw, that I am mixed. My mom was white, my dad Native. I was raised on the reservation though. Grew up as Native. My half sister and brothers on my mom's side - Their dad was Irish LOL So my niece from my sister is half black and a whole lot of Irish.

Here's a little "did you know" - Alice Piper

[John Pickard]

Originally Posted by Darrell Lawrence

(...like old man John).

[Flygirl]

Originally Posted by Darrell Lawrence

Indigenous privilege? Privilege? Seriously? What privilege would that be? LOL

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek there. Referring to my question about what you meant: "As an Indigenous... wrong person to even reply to a political thread on an actors website forums." It sounded like you were saying I can't have an opinion because I have the wrong genealogy. That goes up sideways, even when said to men about abortion, "no uterus, no opinion." Actually we all get an opinion. I am not usually an over-sensitive person but I'm getting sick of the conservative censorship and abuse, in a big way...

Originally Posted by Darrell Lawrence

So you expected me to debate only certain things, and were surprised when I didn't? Interesting...

Actually, yeah. I wanted to hear your argument for why this protest - at this level of rage - is justified and why it's more important than distancing. I only had your first reaction and obvious concerns about racism to go on, but I thought you'd say more than: "You're ignorant, go educate yourself." Disappointing.

I didn't assume... I was asking the question. Do you really think there was collusion to be found, regardless of how the investigation was conducted?

I think it's hypocritical for you to talk about Kavanaugh showing self-restraint and conservative kids respecting our elders (you have to be kidding about that. Phillips was instigating which you can clearly see on the non-edited video, and the teenage boy didn't even say anything to him. He smirked.) Or even about how the big bad police used crowd control tactics on the "peaceful" protesters (looked to me like more often than not they were used after curfew against belligerent protesters who were given a direction to move.) The reason I think it's hypocritical is because you appear to be looking the other way in terms of the worst human behavior imaginable - why? Because you agree with their cause? Is screaming and spitting at cops respectful of authority? And yes, I do believe that any civilized society requires authority figures to enforce laws. That's what the citizens of CHOP are learning now... (they changed it from CHAZ because no doubt somebody looked up the word "autonomous". They're too much.)

Is this respectful and acceptable behavior? Because this is what many mainstream outlets consider a peaceful protest, which is what you support.



I totally agree that numbers get skewed and manipulated for the benefit of a narrative (especially as it pertains to "raaaaacism") but how can you fake unemployment numbers? Unless you're saying the jobs are artificial because they're temporary or something, or too many people have fallen off the books. But I would want to see something to back those claims up.

Originally Posted by Darrell Lawrence

That cop and Floyd actually had a history together.

No, I didn't miss that! I just didn't mention it because I talk too much. Yes, they worked together at the same bar. Now that's not a smoking gun suggesting the crime was personal, since Chauvin was outside and Floyd was a bouncer, but it certainly raises an eyebrow. So what's with all the assumptions about his motive being a racist one? Oh, and don't even get me started on this Atlanta DUI thing. The guy stole the cop's taser and turned around to shoot it at him. Tons of factors there. And *the very next morning* his lawyers are making statements that he was shot in the back while running away because they woke him up?? Wtf? He was talking very cordially with the cop, who was very nicely explaining that they had to take him in when he just went crazy and attacked. There's absolutely no way to draw the assumption that a racist cop pulled a sleeping black guy out of a car and shot him as he was running away. And that little stunt by the lawyers is likely to get him acquitted of any wrongdoing. In a perfect world, anyway... the way things are going now some crazy liberal judge will probably give him life. For being raaaaacist.

Originally Posted by Darrell Lawrence

Ah yes.. Candice Owens... she who was paid to try to make Floyd's past make it ok to murder him. She's the one that Kickstarter closed down, right?

Okay, you need to watch the video. That's not at all what she did.
And I think it was GoFundMe, but you know WHY they shut her down? Had nothing to do with Floyd. She was trying to raise money for a small business owner in Alabama whose bar had been attacked. And the owner called Floyd a "thug". Then apologized for it. (Even though Floyd was, in fact, a thug, much as I hate to speak ill of the dead.) Nope. Canceled. Justifiable? Sorry, no. Legal, but pretty unethical. If she was a liberal it would be GoFundMe who gets canceled...

Originally Posted by Darrell Lawrence

As *I* like to call it? LMAO, YOU are the only one that used that word! I never said it, other than in quotes OF you!

You're right, my bad. I may have been thinking of one of the other 1000 liberals I've debated who throw that word around anytime a special person gets busted.

Originally Posted by Darrell Lawrence

Yeah, we'll have to have a totally different discussion on that one. One that can involve DNA. And I *don't* lean as hard into that as you may think, BUT it also wasn't the President's place to get involved.

Honestly I need to do more research. But who put the federal government in charge of healthcare in the first place?

You and I are not gonna agree on the benefits of capitalism and the concept that trickle down economics can work. Don't you realize they bailed out the businesses that were directly nailed by the pandemic and employ hundreds of thousands of people? No, they didn't lay everybody off. This is another case of the Democrats' desperate attempt to promote class warfare. They've been doing pretty well, too. The President has the background to call them out on this crap and really I'm surprised he hasn't. It's not like he minces words or knows how to be diplomatic about anything else!

Originally Posted by Darrell Lawrence

When I say educate yourself regarding that paragraph, that as to do with stuff going on LONG before Floyd, LONG before Trump, LONG before Obama, LONG before the Bushes and Clinton and so on. It's been building.

This is a conversation I want to have. The situation with race relations has been getting progressively better so why has this animosity been *building*?? I mean, you obviously know my thoughts on the subject but as a person who thinks widespread racism is a modern issue, I really want to hear yours.

Originally Posted by Darrell Lawrence

Look up Black Bloc (no "k") some time. Interesting read.

Roger, wilco. I did mention something about the caravans in that paragraph and I figured that's what you meant when you said "conspiracy theories" because the rest of it was me bitching about millennials.

Originally Posted by Darrell Lawrence

I *do* have a problem with illegal immigrants. I *also* have a problem with treating people like animals.

Same here. Though I don't agree the immigrants were treated like animals.
I think they did the best they could with the influx, honestly, and the media went on their regular mission to villainize Trump.

FTR, I also have a problem with people *behaving* like animals and expecting to be treated with kid gloves. But that goes back to BLM, Antifa and raaaacism.

Originally Posted by Darrell Lawrence

Could care less about the "couldn't care less" opinion. (that was a joke)

Originally Posted by Darrell Lawrence

I should clarify, btw, that I am mixed. My mom was white, my dad Native. I was raised on the reservation though.

Well you would know... The little I know is from the places I've lived; the reservations in Arizona seemed to be rather impoverished and follow with your statement about being overlooked by the government, I guess. The schools rated very poorly and brought down the overall state ranking. (I checked out the link and in fact didn't know that was ever a law like that. That's not right at all. But the case was way back in 1924, and she won, right?) Now, the reservations in Connecticut were a different story. I grew up in MA and there was basically no gambling allowed in New England *except on tribal lands*. So two huge casinos opened up in the 80s and 90s in CT, Foxwoods (Pequot tribe) and Mohegan Sun (Mohegan). In return for the legal loophole, the tribes pay the state 25% of their slot take. They rake in ~$13B/year. Hugely popular. When I was an undergrad we used to spend weekends at Foxwoods - which btw is actually the second largest casino in the US (The largest is in Oklahoma. That's interesting... just learned that while looking this up). Point being, it's a totally different economic situation than AZ. The school district is highly rated too. So that is the totality of my experience with tribal lands.

I just don't get the whole 'my ancestors were treated poorly so the world owes me XYZ' attitude. I really don't. My Irish immigrant ancestors struggled. Of course, they didn't deal with slavery; they weren't driven from their homes and forced to migrate across the country. But they didn't have a whole lot of choice about dropping out of school in 5th grade and working in a knitting mill in pretty nasty conditions, because their families were seen as inferior to all other ethnicities in the area, and couldn't get hired anywhere else. So? I don't struggle the way they did, but I have dealt with my own struggles wrt abuse, depression, rejection, being a female in several totally male-dominated situations... but I'll tell ya, if my great granddaughter is sitting around someday feeling sorry for herself and trying to score points off my issues, or those of anyone who came before me, I'll be looking down (or up ) and feeling very disappointed.

The whole idea of life is to take what you get and keep moving forward. And we all got a crapload better than our ancestors did, and that's all there is to it. IMO...

[Darrell Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Flygirl

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek there. Referring to my question about what you meant: "As an Indigenous... wrong person to even reply to a political thread on an actors website forums."

That right there I said because of attitudes that you implied below.. I'll respond to that there, so look for it and remember that reply is also a reply to this.

It sounded like you were saying I can't have an opinion because I have the wrong genealogy. That goes up sideways, even when said to men about abortion, "no uterus, no opinion." Actually we all get an opinion. I am not usually an over-sensitive person but I'm getting sick of the conservative censorship and abuse, in a big way...

Not even close. See below for that too.

Actually, yeah. I wanted to hear your argument for why this protest - at this level of rage - is justified and why it's more important than distancing. I only had your first reaction and obvious concerns about racism to go on, but I thought you'd say more than: "You're ignorant, go educate yourself." Disappointing.

As I said in my first reply - Protestors and rioters are two different things. If a person spits at an officer during a protest, that INDIVIDUAL is not a protestor. They are a rioter/shit stirrer. As for the level of "rage", it depends on which rage you are talking about. The Protestors are very angry that things have not changed for the better, and they haven't. I said to go way back on the history. Martin Luther King and what he did. Has anything really, honestly changed since the protesting back then? So many parallels can be drawn with what happened then and what is happening now.

I didn't assume... I was asking the question. Do you really think there was collusion to be found, regardless of how the investigation was conducted?

You are asking that question wanting me to say yes or no to collusion. A definitive answer, one way or the other. You're not going to get that. That's where the assumption comes in - you expecting me to say one way or the other. I'm not going to say that. I gave my answer on it. Take it or leave it.

I think it's hypocritical for you to talk about Kavanaugh showing self-restraint and conservative kids respecting our elders

Kavanaugh was in a damn hearing! I'm sure you've been in hearings before - Throw a tantrum like that and you either get tossed from the court room, get fined OR get tossed in jail. And Wow. I said conservative kids? Really? Damn me. Oh wait. No, I didn't say that. Please stop saying I said something I didn't say! LOL Sheesh.

(you have to be kidding about that. Phillips was instigating which you can clearly see on the non-edited video, and the teenage boy didn't even say anything to him. He smirked.)

And no. I wasn't kidding. Trying reading my entire answer. I said I had things I said about Phillips after more info was found out. And the respect for elders - Wow. Guess you have never ran across elders that are a pain in the ass before. The kids could have simply stepped aside and laughed at him or whatever. But they didn't. Cameras caught it. You saw the blow up about it. A simple show of respect would have avoided that whole thing, AND video of Phillips being an ass would still surface, and the kids aren't involved. Follow that???

Or even about how the big bad police used crowd control tactics on the "peaceful" protesters (looked to me like more often than not they were used after curfew against belligerent protesters who were given a direction to move.) The reason I think it's hypocritical is because you appear to be looking the other way in terms of the worst human behavior imaginable - why? Because you agree with their cause? Is screaming and spitting at cops respectful of authority? And yes, I do believe that any civilized society requires authority figures to enforce laws.

Geeze... LMAO An old man walking up to police in broad daylight TO RETURN A HELMET and getting pushed hard enough to fall and get a head injury isn't "crowd tactics". An officer grabbing a woman's breast, her pulling away because of that, then getting beaten by multi cops isn't "crowd tactics". People standing around protesting peacefully in broad daylight getting shot with rubber bullets is not "crowd tactics". A black reporter from a news station that is LIVE ON AIR gets arrested, while a white crew not even a block away from the SAME news station isn't harassed at all. That's not "crowd control". Those are just SOME examples. The ones the police should have been after are the rioters and looters. But they didn't do squat to get them. Oh, and BTW, did you read about the black guy that saved another person FROM rioters, then got shot? Yup.... "crowd control". LMAO... geeze. I have NEVER, not even once or even hinted, that ALL cops are bad. Right now, it's the bad cops that are in the news. Same type of a situation where the loudest are heard over the quiet, even though both speak. And once again, referring to the spitting, etc - Those are NOT protestors. Those are rioters/instigators, etc.

That's what the citizens of CHOP are learning now... (they changed it from CHAZ because no doubt somebody looked up the word "autonomous". They're too much.)

I already laughed at those guys. Do I need to laugh at them again?

Is this respectful and acceptable behavior? Because this is what many mainstream outlets consider a peaceful protest, which is what you support.

See above. Also, yoiu seem to have an issue with me supporting PEACEFUL protests. Why is that?

I totally agree that numbers get skewed and manipulated for the benefit of a narrative (especially as it pertains to "raaaaacism") but how can you fake unemployment numbers? Unless you're saying the jobs are artificial because they're temporary or something, or too many people have fallen off the books. But I would want to see something to back those claims up.

That'll be coming later.

No, I didn't miss that! I just didn't mention it because I talk too much. Yes, they worked together at the same bar. Now that's not a smoking gun suggesting the crime was personal, since Chauvin was outside and Floyd was a bouncer, but it certainly raises an eyebrow. So what's with all the assumptions about his motive being a racist one?

Then you did miss it. I'll look it up later, but the two had run in with each other before NOT work related.

Oh, and don't even get me started on this Atlanta DUI thing. The guy stole the cop's taser and turned around to shoot it at him. Tons of factors there. And *the very next morning* his lawyers are making statements that he was shot in the back while running away because they woke him up?? Wtf? He was talking very cordially with the cop, who was very nicely explaining that they had to take him in when he just went crazy and attacked. There's absolutely no way to draw the assumption that a racist cop pulled a sleeping black guy out of a car and shot him as he was running away. And that little stunt by the lawyers is likely to get him acquitted of any wrongdoing. In a perfect world, anyway... the way things are going now some crazy liberal judge will probably give him life. For being raaaaacist.

Wow. You're throwing something new into this and you think I automatically lean towards "raaaaacist"?

Okay, you need to watch the video.

I did watch a video of her, explaining what an evil man Floyd was, in a way that made it seem he deserved what happened. I also know she's paid as a speaker. Two and two.

That's not at all what she did.

Guess I will watch it again then, unless we watched two different videos.

And I think it was GoFundMe, but you know WHY they shut her down? Had nothing to do with Floyd.

Never said it had anything to do with Floyd, did I? And yeah, GoFundMe.

She was trying to raise money for a small business owner in Alabama whose bar had been attacked. And the owner called Floyd a "thug". Then apologized for it. (Even though Floyd was, in fact, a thug, much as I hate to speak ill of the dead.) Nope. Canceled. Justifiable? Sorry, no. Legal, but pretty unethical.

If true, then yes, that is unethical and wrong. I've seen far worse that people should get shut down on various things, GoFundMe and whatever that other one was I said... Kickstarter?

If she was a liberal it would be GoFundMe who gets canceled...

I wouldn't know. I'm not a Party person. I dislike ALL politicians equally.

You're right, my bad. I may have been thinking of one of the other 1000 liberals I've debated who throw that word around anytime a special person gets busted.

"one of the other 1000 liberals"... so now you're calling me a liberal when I made it VERY DAMN CLEAR I am not.

Honestly I need to do more research. But who put the federal government in charge of healthcare in the first place?

I didn't say the Federal Government. I said The President.

You and I are not gonna agree on the benefits of capitalism and the concept that trickle down economics can work. Don't you realize they bailed out the businesses that were directly nailed by the pandemic and employ hundreds of thousands of people? No, they didn't lay everybody off. This is another case of the Democrats' desperate attempt to promote class warfare. They've been doing pretty well, too. The President has the background to call them out on this crap and really I'm surprised he hasn't. It's not like he minces words or knows how to be diplomatic about anything else!

Well, instead of going by one parties word, why not go by your own eyes and ears? I know a LOT of people that got laid off by these major companies that benefited from that "stimulas" money. And those workers never saw a dime other than the un-related "$1,200.00". They had to file for un-employment. And that's been a nightmare for a lot of people.

This is a conversation I want to have. The situation with race relations has been getting progressively better so why has this animosity been *building*?? I mean, you obviously know my thoughts on the subject but as a person who thinks widespread racism is a modern issue, I really want to hear yours.

First, explain in what capacity do you think race relations are better?

Roger, wilco. I did mention something about the caravans in that paragraph and I figured that's what you meant when you said "conspiracy theories" because the rest of it was me bitching about millennials.

Same here. Though I don't agree the immigrants were treated like animals.
I think they did the best they could with the influx, honestly, and the media went on their regular mission to villainize Trump.

...ummm No. Separating children from their parents, and putting those children into what IS essentially a cage IS treating them like animals. And not taking care of them like they should be taken care of. WHY are they still detained? WHY haven't they been removed from the country?

FTR, I also have a problem with people *behaving* like animals and expecting to be treated with kid gloves. But that goes back to BLM, Antifa and raaaacism.

BLM isn't the problem. Antifa is a name that doesn't fit what those ass-clowns actually do. it is a name to hide behind. And even though it appears you don't want to accept it- Racism is a real thing.

Well you would know... The little I know is from the places I've lived; the reservations in Arizona seemed to be rather impoverished and follow with your statement about being overlooked by the government, I guess. The schools rated very poorly and brought down the overall state ranking. (I checked out the link and in fact didn't know that was ever a law like that. That's not right at all. But the case was way back in 1924, and she won, right?)

Dunno how Arizona came into this LOL I am from BIshop, CA and grew up on the Rez in Big Pine, CA - The same one Alice Piper is from. And I was originally going to post that link with a little quiz, asking who was the first to actually win an equal rights argument with the government. Most people say Rosa Parks was the first significant thing to happen. It wasn't. Alice Piper was. But she's buried in history. Why? No idea.So instead I jsut did the little"did you know" thing as a side convo not intended for the main course.

Now, the reservations in Connecticut were a different story. I grew up in MA and there was basically no gambling allowed in New England *except on tribal lands*. So two huge casinos opened up in the 80s and 90s in CT, Foxwoods (Pequot tribe) and Mohegan Sun (Mohegan). In return for the legal loophole, the tribes pay the state 25% of their slot take. They rake in ~$13B/year. Hugely popular. When I was an undergrad we used to spend weekends at Foxwoods - which btw is actually the second largest casino in the US (The largest is in Oklahoma. That's interesting... just learned that while looking this up). Point being, it's a totally different economic situation than AZ. The school district is highly rated too. So that is the totality of my experience with tribal lands.

It's actually the same for pretty much ALL Tribal Casinos. Where I am, this particular Tribe isn't bad off. Neither is the Big Pine one. But there are a few in the general area that could have improvements. Remember when I mentioned I actually worked with Law Enforecement people? That was when I live in teh Four Corners area of New Mexico - Aztec, NM to be precise. The Navajo Nation is actually in 4 different states, with the majority of it being in AZ. So I did have a lot of interaction with Natives from there. Not a pretty picture.

I just don't get the whole 'my ancestors were treated poorly so the world owes me XYZ' attitude. I really don't.

LOL I agree with that to a point. I personally think Natives should take advantage of what opportunies arise for them to take AND keep their traditions alive. This is the 21st century, not the 18th or 19th. Gotta live in the times. BUT at the same time, it IS like I said before about the mythical or dead injun thing. That is a carry-over into today's society that continues to be prevalent.

My Irish immigrant ancestors struggled.

Natives sent them money back in the great potato famine. Did you know that? And earlier this year, some Irish folk got together and sent money back (but to a different tribe) as pay-back. Total respect for each other a century apart. The Irish also erected a Native statue in Ireland due to the help the Natives provided.

Of course, they didn't deal with slavery; they weren't driven from their homes and forced to migrate across the country. But they didn't have a whole lot of choice about dropping out of school in 5th grade and working in a knitting mill in pretty nasty conditions, because their families were seen as inferior to all other ethnicities in the area, and couldn't get hired anywhere else. So? I don't struggle the way they did, but I have dealt with my own struggles wrt abuse, depression, rejection, being a female in several totally male-dominated situations... but I'll tell ya, if my great granddaughter is sitting around someday feeling sorry for herself and trying to score points off my issues, or those of anyone who came before me, I'll be looking down (or up ) and feeling very disappointed.

Natives aren't sitting around feeling sorry for themselves. They're doing something about it. They're protesting as well. Or did you miss that part?

The whole idea of life is to take what you get and keep moving forward. And we all got a crapload better than our ancestors did, and that's all there is to it. IMO...

Dis-agree somewhat. There are STILL road blocks to overcome for everyone to have the same opportunities. Yo umention being a woman in a male dominated world. What caused things to happen for women to be able to vote? They protested! And then years later, remember Women's Lib? That was a movement that improved things for women. Are things where they SHOULD be? Not by a long shot.

The same goes for Blacks, hence Black Lives Matter, the same goes for Natives, hence AIM and Native Lives Matter, etc.

Now, back to the top where I said I'd reply below, that up there and this last paragraph of yours, it APPEARS you are taking on the same attitude that a lot of people take when I tell them I am Native. They are the "get over it" crowd, just like you're insinuating. Hence my saying being a Native, it probably IS a mistake for me to reply to shit like this. Because that's hat this is - shit. It's an attempt to stir the pot. I see NOTHING here that says, "Hey, let's talk and try to resolve issues going on." No... what I see is "I'm right, you're wrong. You gotta believe this or you're whatever you said... liberal?"

Try offering solutions instead of adding to the problem.

My biggest solution that'll never happen is - get rid of all politicians and start over. One of the best quotes I ever saw was "Anyone who WANTS to be President should NOT be allowed to run."

But, again, since that won't happen, then gotta start small.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Just seeing if you're paying attention there, old man

[Flygirl]

I actually left a bunch of quoted text out of that. I hope it still makes sense...

[Vballspieler]

I still have to finish reading the posts, but I have some comments to make.

1- you can't lump ALL people together. Whether it be Democrats, Republicans, African Americans, Whites, Native Americans, pro-life, pro-choice, or anti-abortion. There are ranges of characteristics in ALL groups.

2 - No, you can't blame Trump for the Coronavirus, but he also can't blame Obama for not having tests for something that wasn't around when Obama was in office. China is responsible for not communicating the outbreak earlier and how infectious it was. However, scientists have proven that the virus has already mutated and the strain we have in the Americas and Europe is much more contagious as what was in China. Tonight on the news, China was fearing that the outbreak in Beijing is the mutated strain of the virus and they are concerned about another, bigger outbreak.

3- I have a problem with being judge and jury without an investigation. The video on what happened to George Floyd looked really bad (and it was), but the officers still deserve an impartial investigation. If they are guilty of murder, prosecute.... just like you would do with anyone else. First impressions can be wrong. That's why our ancestors wanted everyone to be innocent until proven guilty. That's not the case these days. You are guilty until you can prove yourself innocent and then hope that society doesn't convict you in public opinion. If you are not in the popular majority, my belief is that you always have a higher risk of being targeted. Whether it's being poor, uneducated, different color skin, etc..... African Americans are not the only ones who have ever been discriminated against. Equality is not prevalent in our society. Opportunities, wages, being considered a suspect, even medical care is not equal. If everyone had to pay the medical costs to fight this coronavirus, the lower income are disadvantaged. Why is my life more expendable than someone who makes more money than I do? We need to do better for everyone, in many areas. ALL LIVES MATTER and not just black ones.

4 - Mail in voting is an option and in my state, it's always been there. Voting is your right and obligation. Doing it should be acceptable and not discouraged because you can't or won't do it in person.

5- I have no problem with people protesting peacefully. Do I wish it wasn't during a pandemic? You bet. The easier we can make dealing with the virus, the better for all. I don't blame the peaceful protesters for the looting, but the looters are looking for any opportunity to do it and during protests is an opportunity they see.

I know others will disagree with my position. My biggest pet peeve is when I can understand their point of view (or I try very hard to), but they don't even try to understand mine (I'm just wrong).

[Flygirl]

Darrell- I’m going to reply so the stuff you said that you don’t seem to be as upset about, and then bring up another topic. Something we said we’d get back to, if that’s okay. Or you can. Either way.

Joyce- I agree with most of what you’re saying and hope we can discuss further.

It’s been a crappy day and I can’t get into politics at the moment (shocker!) but I wanted to post something...

[Flygirl]

Originally Posted by Vballspieler

I have a problem with being judge and jury without an investigation. The video on what happened to George Floyd looked really bad (and it was), but the officers still deserve an impartial investigation. If they are guilty of murder, prosecute.... just like you would do with anyone else. First impressions can be wrong. That's why our ancestors wanted everyone to be innocent until proven guilty. That's not the case these days. You are guilty until you can prove yourself innocent and then hope that society doesn't convict you in public opinion. If you are not in the popular majority, my belief is that you always have a higher risk of being targeted. Whether it's being poor, uneducated, different color skin, etc..... African Americans are not the only ones who have ever been discriminated against. Equality is not prevalent in our society. Opportunities, wages, being considered a suspect, even medical care is not equal. If everyone had to pay the medical costs to fight this coronavirus, the lower income are disadvantaged. Why is my life more expendable than someone who makes more money than I do? We need to do better for everyone, in many areas. ALL LIVES MATTER and not just black ones.

Amen to all of this. We need to stop trying people in the court of public opinion. Something as serious as a life being taken needs to be handled by proper authorities, *immediately*, investigations should take place before public comments are made and video evidence is only one piece of the puzzle. Personally, I thought it was clear that George Floyd was murdered - or, at the very least, his death was caused by extreme incompetence and negligence on the part of all the officers involved. Rayshard Brooks was not murdered. He was shot by an officer after resisting arrest, assault, fleeing, and attacking the officer. It looked like a "good" shooting. But my opinion based on two video snippets means nothing, nor does anyone else's. The entirety of social media is not the jury.

I also agree that we have inequities in our society and unless we are going to take everything from everyone and spread it out evenly - which is not fair to those who have worked for it - we have to accept inequities. Does that mean we shouldn't shoulder responsibility for making sure people who can't afford medical care can be treated when they are ill or injured? Of course not. Does it mean that people who don't work and don't have money should get free nose jobs and gender reassignment while rich people pay for them? No, it doesn't. There's a line. I also maintain this conversation has naught to do with race or ethnicity.

Originally Posted by Vballspieler

Mail in voting is an option and in my state, it's always been there. Voting is your right and obligation. Doing it should be acceptable and not discouraged because you can't or won't do it in person.

I have gone back and forth on this. I have nothing against someone requesting a mail-in ballot and using it to vote when they can't get there (e.g., they are out of the country, physically impaired, etc.) But that's already allowed and is done regularly. I don't think any state prohibits that. I also question the huge Democrat impetus for changing it to a *mandatory* mail-in vote this year. So I'm asking you to sell me on this one. How do we minimize ballot harvesting and fraud, when they are finding ballots in garbage cans in Nevada?

[Vballspieler]

Originally Posted by Flygirl

I have gone back and forth on this. I have nothing against someone requesting a mail-in ballot and using it to vote when they can't get there (e.g., they are out of the country, physically impaired, etc.) But that's already allowed and is done regularly. I don't think any state prohibits that. I also question the huge Democrat impetus for changing it to a *mandatory* mail-in vote this year. So I'm asking you to sell me on this one. How do we minimize ballot harvesting and fraud, when they are finding ballots in garbage cans in Nevada?

I wonder why we couldn't vote electronically. If they can figure out a way to scan a thumb to get a code on your phone to open up a ballot electronically, why not? We do this to protect our financial information. Why not our vote?
I am in favor of mail-in voting because they did trace positive coronavirus cases to our election in WI in April and those counties with long lines for in-person voting had the highest number of positive cases. Unfortunately, I don't see anything as been perfect. Even in-person voting can have issues.... chads or fraud, etc. Sometimes you have to take the best option, even if it's not the perfect option.

[Flygirl]

Originally Posted by Vballspieler

I wonder why we couldn't vote electronically. If they can figure out a way to scan a thumb to get a code on your phone to open up a ballot electronically, why not? We do this to protect our financial information. Why not our vote?

I've talked about biometrics before on our debate group. The trouble people seem to have with it is that they don't believe the government is there yet with a cyber-tamper-proof centralized database, and it would have to be administered at a state level. Then there can be some technical issues with biometrics...

Here's an interesting concept though (at least I think so). What if we used fingerprint/handprint or even voice activated sensors on law enforcement officers' weapons? That may be a stupid idea based on temporal concerns in life-or-death situations. On the other hand it is an added layer of security.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Flygirl

I've talked about biometrics before on our debate group. The trouble people seem to have with it is that they don't believe the government is there yet with a cyber-tamper-proof centralized database, and it would have to be administered at a state level. Then there can be some technical issues with biometrics...

Here's an idea to implement that - Do it at County level, then send those results to whoever needs them. And to help cover the mail-in aspects of voting, since it's by finger print, then whatever area you are in, you can vote there and just have it identified somehow that it's an absentee vote.

Here's an interesting concept though (at least I think so). What if we used fingerprint/handprint or even voice activated sensors on law enforcement officers' weapons? That may be a stupid idea based on temporal concerns in life-or-death situations. On the other hand it is an added layer of security.

That's not a stupid idea at all. Hand held weapons have grips to hold the weapon. The finger print scanner can be installed right there.

[Flygirl]

Hey, so let's change the conversation up a little bit.

On every platform, it seems, debates on provocative issues almost inevitably lead to misunderstandings wherein someone takes something personally or feels the need to put somebody down. I'm not saying it happens once in a while, like it did in the 2000s, I'm saying almost 100% of the time. Have you guys noticed that? At first I thought it was just my snarkiness. I have a very snarky and often heated debate style (and I think people understand it better when we are face to face than texting), but I almost never get personal with the person I'm debating. I am an active listener, and I feed off what the person just said when I'm trying to make a point.

So I'm working on being less snarky. But I'm conservative, obviously, and I think conservative voices are not only silenced, but "corrected" in a sanctimonious way by people who feel they have some superior understanding of the human condition. That drives me nuts. I mean, NUTS.

I will share with you that this happened to me last week on a forum for an international professional society of which I've been a member, an author and a chairperson for 16 years. I almost quit the society and I am still seriously considering it. You would think people with multiple PhDs in psychology would understand certain things about themselves... I wrote this to the former president just now while we were discussing it:

"I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I believe the society was more inclusive years ago than it is now. You may disagree with my statements, but that doesn’t make them disrespectful, ignorant or immoral.

Members claim to be interested in diversity and inclusion, but diversity of thought and of ideology is just as important as ethnic and social diversity. I hope members will come to realize that in the future. Although we have members spread across the globe, *** has become a microcosm of our American society in a very negative way. Just as we see every day on the streets and in the media (and entertainment, sports, etc.), the loudest voices with the “correct” message are heard, and the others are silenced or threatened. Mobs of people don’t see how oppressive they are when they think they are right and just in their oppression. We have seen this throughout history."

There's a little more to the conversation but that is my feeling about what's going on all over... not just social media but regular, everyday conversations and even at work. We're just not *listening* to each other anymore. Personally, I think it's that people are internalizing it more, and that's because those people are being targeted in an insidious way - so they believe they are/have been personally abused as a result of a conspiracy of widespread environmental bias. (So even if they have had one or two bad experiences in their lifetimes, they blow them up and attribute them to this enormous problem rather than a singular source). I do believe racism exists, and reverse racism. I also think the media's cries of "racism" every time they see potential are mostly unfounded.

What can we do about these problems? How can we work together more collaboratively?

And building off of that, and the solution Darrell just mentioned in terms of abolishing politicians and starting from scratch... I think more than a few of us think the two-party system is outdated. It's not going to go away unless people start voting third party even if they think they're probably "throwing their votes away". Will this ever be addressed - by whom? And how? I don't see this as being a priority for our current government...

[Darrell Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Flygirl

Hey, so let's change the conversation up a little bit.

On every platform, it seems, debates on provocative issues almost inevitably lead to misunderstandings wherein someone takes something personally or feels the need to put somebody down. I'm not saying it happens once in a while, like it did in the 2000s, I'm saying almost 100% of the time. Have you guys noticed that? At first I thought it was just my snarkiness. I have a very snarky and often heated debate style (and I think people understand it better when we are face to face than texting), but I almost never get personal with the person I'm debating. I am an active listener, and I feed off what the person just said when I'm trying to make a point.

So I'm working on being less snarky. But I'm conservative, obviously, and I think conservative voices are not only silenced, but "corrected" in a sanctimonious way by people who feel they have some superior understanding of the human condition. That drives me nuts. I mean, NUTS.

I will share with you that this happened to me last week on a forum for an international professional society of which I've been a member, an author and a chairperson for 16 years. I almost quit the society and I am still seriously considering it. You would think people with multiple PhDs in psychology would understand certain things about themselves... I wrote this to the former president just now while we were discussing it:

"I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I believe the society was more inclusive years ago than it is now. You may disagree with my statements, but that doesn’t make them disrespectful, ignorant or immoral.

Members claim to be interested in diversity and inclusion, but diversity of thought and of ideology is just as important as ethnic and social diversity. I hope members will come to realize that in the future. Although we have members spread across the globe, *** has become a microcosm of our American society in a very negative way. Just as we see every day on the streets and in the media (and entertainment, sports, etc.), the loudest voices with the “correct” message are heard, and the others are silenced or threatened. Mobs of people don’t see how oppressive they are when they think they are right and just in their oppression. We have seen this throughout history."

There's a little more to the conversation but that is my feeling about what's going on all over... not just social media but regular, everyday conversations and even at work. We're just not *listening* to each other anymore. Personally, I think it's that people are internalizing it more, and that's because those people are being targeted in an insidious way - so they believe they are/have been personally abused as a result of a conspiracy of widespread environmental bias. (So even if they have had one or two bad experiences in their lifetimes, they blow them up and attribute them to this enormous problem rather than a singular source). I do believe racism exists, and reverse racism. I also think the media's cries of "racism" every time they see potential are mostly unfounded.

What can we do about these problems? How can we work together more collaboratively?

And building off of that, and the solution Darrell just mentioned in terms of abolishing politicians and starting from scratch... I think more than a few of us think the two-party system is outdated. It's not going to go away unless people start voting third party even if they think they're probably "throwing their votes away". Will this ever be addressed - by whom? And how? I don't see this as being a priority for our current government...

I can agree with that. Especially the racism comment. It's not reverse racism, it's simply racism. There's definitely black racists out there, definitely Native ones, Asian ones and so on. As was stated by one of my favorite actors - "Stop calling me black and I'm going to stop calling you white." He has a number of interesting things to say about what's going on too.

Having said that, not everyone that has one or two little run ins blow everything up and blame everyone else. But there are indeed some Government roadblocks in place regarding Native Americans. I know you'll say "Oh waa waa" or "cry me a river" etc LOL But they are there. Those problems *don't* come from the President (that I know of, anyways... meaning the Mashpee Wampanoag Tribe stuff). They come from both the U.S. branch that is to see over Native American stuff *and* the tribes themselves.

That solution I said will *never ever* happen, and is un-realistic. It's mostly a tongue-in-cheek thing. That's why I also said "gotta start small". I agree a third party needs to be in place. I wonder what things would be like if Perot had actually won (though to this day, I don't think he was really in it to win, but to stir the pot, so-to-speak, but that is my opinion, not fact).

[Flygirl]

Darrell, I hate the term "reverse racism", too. It is odd to me that some people actually have a mental block accepting that people of all colors have intrinsic bias. It is interesting because it's a super racist notion. The level of melanin in one's skin does not dictate cognitive processes. (Shockingly. LOL) One of the people in my professional group - in response to a very simple statement made by a colleague that racism goes both ways - had the following to say: "First, to refer to people in the African diaspora, please capitalize the 'B' in Black. In the 7th edition of the APA manual ... Secondly, the term 'racism' is defined by Merriam-Webster as "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race". For people of European descent, reverse racism is not a possibility due to upholding institutional power within the United States. Your comment "Racism goes both ways" falls under the category of Justification. If you or anyone else would like to unpack these implicit biases, please reach out to me." (This is the way folks speak to us on the forum when we try to have a give and take conversation.)

Originally Posted by Darrell Lawrence

But there are indeed some Government roadblocks in place regarding Native Americans. I know you'll say "Oh waa waa" or "cry me a river" etc LOL But they are there. Those problems *don't* come from the President (that I know of, anyways... meaning the Mashpee Wampanoag Tribe stuff). They come from both the U.S. branch that is to see over Native American stuff *and* the tribes themselves.

Actually, I'm really interested in the current issues between government entities and Native Americans/tribes/land. It seems like it could be a pretty complex situation?

Wrt third parties - It almost seems like anyone running as a third party candidate has different motives for being there. They themselves don't think they will win. Rather, it's a career step to something else... Even Ross Perot, to a degree was more interested in having a podium for a short time than actually believing he would get there. Why didn't Bernie run third party when he was ousted by the DNC in 2016? Don't get me wrong, my politics are the polar opposite of the "Democratic Socialist" ideology... and probably yours, judging by our conversation. It could be that my calling you a "liberal" is just a matter of semantics. In my mind, all SJWs are far-left liberals, but not all liberals (particularly moderate liberals) are SJWs. Would you consider yourself an SJW?

[Vballspieler]

When reading through the posts, I have to ask: What is the treatment that Native Americans should have? I listen to my sister get frustrated because her friend's children get a break on their tuition and the only difference between her kids and her friends' kids is the ethnicity. Both mothers have worked very hard to achieve what they have. Both have multiple kids.

I don't have an answer to this dilemma. I know that because of my parents' financial situation, I got grants to help me out with school. I am very grateful for the help because it wasn't easy paying for school while working full-time.

To me, it's like the income tax dilemma. If we do a flat tax and everyone pays a certain percentage of their income (like sales tax), then certain groups get offended. They have children or other dependents that they have to take care of. Yet, pets don't get you any tax breaks.... I feel for those with children who are struggling. I also know that having grown up that way, I always said I would never have kids unless I was sure I could take care of them.

Anyway... these are my thoughts for the evening. Have a good one!